Aboriginal Australian Interview Posted!
By Shannon • Jul 16th, 2007 • Category: ModBlogClick through the picture to read Ferg’s coverage of traditional body modification (ritual cutting, scarification, and subincision) among indigenous Australians (and then come back and talk about it if you want)! Big thanks to Ferg for submitting this and being patient with me in getting it posted.
Shannon is the former editor of BMEzine.com.
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Thanks again to Ferg for doing this coverage!
Fascinating. I hadn’t realised some of that - and I live here. Thanks also for the map.
Wow, fantastic. Can’t wait to get stuck into this.
Wow.
[and I cant help but think how cute those boys are, and how tough those scars are.]
Great Article :)
so many words, oh my head. very interesting article though.
I’ve often wondered why so many bodymod enthusiasts are enchanted with the traditional practises and history of practically every indigenous people of the world barring the Australian aboriginals. It’s nice to read some interesting, factual information about them on BME. I’ve had extremely interested and positive responses to my own lower-arm scarification (as well as my stretched earlobes) from aboriginal friends and people I’ve met in Darwin - generally, a much more positive and enthusiastic response than from the non-indigenous Australians I meet!
Also, I was talking to some aboriginal friends once about their non-secret religious practise (out of interest and curiousity, rather than study or research) and asked them about subincision, and I had to explain what “subincision” meant - they referred to it as “whistlecock”, which I thought was pretty much the best term ever and have privately called subincisions in my head ever since. They were surprised to know that “white” men (e.g., anyone not Aboriginal Australian) subincise their penises for pleasure or appearance and thought it was pretty funny. I absolutely concur with the statement in the article that aboriginals think white people are mad and don’t seem overly fussed about the concept of cultural appropriation (as opposed to how Maoris feel about non-Maori wearing “moko”, or even calling fire-twirling “poi”, for example), that’s been my experience as well.
Also: that’s not an iguana Ferg’s eating, as iguanas live in South America and aren’t found in Australia! It doesn’t really even look like a ‘goanna’ (local term for any of the various Varanids in Australia), the head kind of looks like a bluetongue to me - a slow-moving, large skink found all over Australia.
Great Article !!
The Koori people in this country are doing it REAL tough. Really nice to read about them on an international forum like BME. The government in this country (Australia) are racist bastards of the worst order.
Omg pics of abos not sniffing petrol! whats going on? seriously im actually looking in the background for them stealing something or sniffing SOME form of solvent… They must already be drunk.
Anyone who thinks i’m racist try living in the north of western Australia and see how fucking nice they are…
My, what sensible, well thought out comments Jacki… I’m glad you’re here to point us to the true nature of those nasty, solvent abusing brown people…
Always a pleasure Johnny Boy :)
I kind of have to agree with Jacki D…
Anybody who lives in an actual city in WA doesn’t have a good perception of aboriginals. They are foul, foul people.
That said, I’ve been to small close-nick communities, and they’ve been lovely there.
Great article!
Yeah ‘cos God knows white boys never do drugs and steal. Always them ‘abos’.
Ugh that was fucking hard to write, even in jest.
I’ve got some lovely pics of Indigenous women’s scarification. I’m with Lori on the difference between the ways we approach Indigenous culture - Aussies tend to ignore it, denigrate it or just not even think about it. For the most part it’s like the neo-pagans doing their solstice prep all arse-about: taking the culture from the other end of the world and ignoring what we’ve got surrounding us.
Great article, really enjoyed it, thanks!
Ananke, I think that’s a bit unfair. I appreciate indigenous culture when I come across it. I’m not saying that aboriginals are the only people that do drugs or whatever, because that’s a completely ridiculous thing to say. I couldn’t even say that with a straight face. But anybody who’s ever been into the Perth CBD can say that the aboriginals there are not a kind example of indiginous Australians.
well done, informative, and enjoyable too! great article
Thanks for the back up spicazi.
And sorry to everyone that i swore so much in my first post, its just that on the weekend one of my mates was beaten up pretty bad by around 10 aboriginals as he walked home. All they stole was one of his shoes… Anyway please keep this clear from anymore flaming, its a well written article.
Interesting article but sure as fuck didn’t expect/want to see dead deer and turtle. ugh, i’d rather seen some chain links pinched thru a glans. and yes i know that’s how they survive but again, ugh.
Do me a favour (and yourselves too) - please keep your generalised negative comments about Australian Aboriginal people to yourselves (or at the very least, spit them out on a different web page).
If you have the time, I welcome criticism or thoughts on my article (as always) - good or bad.
The other foul, foul stuff is probably best kept for forums on: http://www.IHateAllAboriginals‘CauseThey’reAllTheSame.com
Email me at: bizarroboy@gmail.com if you feel the need to take this any further with me.
Outside of anything else, it should be obvious that these negative statements are reflections of the negative influence of the invader culture, not of the indigenous culture.
Well thats pretty obvious Shannon. Did it need to be said lol?
That was incredible!
Fantastic piece and great interview. Extremely positive and a great read.
Nice one.
Shannon - Within most cultures there are negative (or anti-social) aspects irrespective of whether they have been ‘invaded’ or not. Humans have a huge variety of emotions, desires and personalities and within the ‘natural’ there are many many examples of those that go against the ‘normative’ social elements. In remote tribal stories from the Mayans there were always tales of the rogue element jealous of other’s power and seeking to kill to get what they want. Negativity is not something created by capitalist westerners and is in fact quite normal within nature and organisation.
As Dave Chappelle said in a skit once: “Oh this racism is killing us”
I’ve honestly only been here in Darwin Northern Territory for a few months now…But I have to say I’ve already seen/heard both sides of the stories.
For the most part the majority of the aboriginal people keep to themselves and barely even talk to me when I’m walking around town. Maybe its my tattoos, my scarification, my piercings, also maybe the fact I’m always listening to my mp3 player.
But I will also say the other night at a bar an aboriginal person felt he was allowed to sit down at a table with me and my lady friend…And literally demand cigarettes and glasses of beer from us. When we declined his request he got VERY upset and started basically calling us racists and that his people was here before us,etc,etc.
Also there’s many articles in newspapers and stuff going around up here of groups of aboriginal children throwing rocks at cars, as well as severely beating up people walking alone.
From what I’ve heard and seen the groups that do not live in main cities and are in their own communities are vastly different then many of the aboriginals that live an stay in the cities.
For point of reference for the Toronto people…Queen & Bathurst intersection…There’s usually a group of native american people seated on the North West corner often begging for change,etc…One time walking along the road one of them actually GRABBED my arm demanding stuff,etc.
Basically what it boils down to is that they leave their communities and want to demand to be able to do anything, and only fall under “tribal law” and ignore the civic city laws, which personally I think they should follow both.
For people with brutally racist remarks…Something might tell me the majority of it is from people who do not live in the aboriginal communities nor have ever spent time in one…and they’re only basing their judgment on what they’ve seen in their towns/cities,etc.
Great article. I really enjoyed reading it.
My mate was beaten to death on a city street by a rugby player who got off with a caution. I’m not calling rugby players, Islanders or teenage boys ‘foul’ or shit like that. It’s called a bit of perspective, I suggest it’s a wonderful thing.
A lot of the ways Indigenous people react is a direct run from disrupted cultural mores and behaviours. In other words, when culture dictates everything is shared, it can come across all sorts of fucked up when applying it to average Aussie culture. Same with initiation rites. Not to say progress doesn’t allow shit that’d never be allowed in either culture, but quite often the clashes are easy to trace.
I can see that the religious aspects of Aboriginal culture are interesting to the Western world since Aboriginal spirituality and history is so different from the European history that most of us share however, I don’t see a reason to be racist or overly defensive regarding this article.
This article shows an aspect of their culture reasonably free from politics and is here to understand and educate those that didn’t know this knowledge previously.
Yes, there is a pandemic of under-privileged Indigenous Australians.
Yes, the government has caused this through years of laws, legislations and racism, both subtly and openly.
Yes, missions still operate and funding is cut to Indigenous services and the non-Indigenous population suppresses the Indigenous population.
Australia, like other places is Media influenced and if the media says that the Indigenous population is bad/worthless/substance abusers then the non-Indigenous population is going to believe that. Until people read about true accounts of the Indigenous people and understand that their culture has been like an apple to an orange in comparison to Western culture then they can’t open their eyes past the solvent-abusing, child-neglecting Indigenous people they see on the front cover of their local paper, which is a shame because they have so much to share.
Only 1% of Indigenous Australians live in the metro areas of Australia (taken from the last census). I don’t think you can judge a race based on 1%.
My comment is long and I’m almost done now but one last thing: If you saw a person of obvious European descent drunk and abusive in a public place would you judge his whole race based on what you had just seen? Now would it be the same answer if this person was Aboriginal?
I am most ashamed that some Australians have negative reactions against aboriginal people its discrimination if that person was to cry foul because they chose to pierce or modify there body I would not support them let he who is withoout sin cast the first stone.Part of being human is accepting people for who they are and not judging unless you like being judged
[...] I just read a fantastic article over on Modblog about traditional body modification among indigenous Australians. Check it out if you like, here is the permalink. [...]
Ferg: Your mention of Aboriginal peoples fighting for their beliefs after European settlement is inadequate and incorrect. The early conflicts between Europeans and Aborigines appear not to be ideological, but more simply were disputes over stolen land which provided resources needed for the continued existence of Indigenous populations. That Indigenous groups had “no hope of defeating the well-armed Europeans” is again reductive and historically disempowering, Reynolds has demonstrated that many successful “guerilla” style attacks were carried out upon Europeans by Indigenous peoples. The acknowledgement of these histories is important in avoiding a simplistic understanding of invasion/decimation on behalf of the Europeans, and equally so in avoiding a description of Indigenous peoples as “weak” and unable to defend themselves. I realise the article is not academic, but some sources in the section above the interview would certainly be useful as some information you have provided is still debated. Also, the paragraph on Donald Thomson is somewhat confusing as it does not appear entirely relevant.
It’s a shame the comments on this article had to resort to singling out Aborigines as an ethnic group for their behaviour. A comment on the violent behaviour of any Australian, regardless of ancestory, would have been equally irrelevant and equally accurate. This article was not intended to be a political commentary on the sociological aspects of contemporary Indigenous life, its a shame some posters could not appreciate the information on traditional scarification. Shannon - to assert there is some kind of unified “invader culture” in Australia is insulting and blinkered. There are issues of territoriality all over the world, and racism is not confined to the groups represented here.
All your points are easily answered, ‘BTS’.
I’ll get on to this shortly.
p.s. I really do wish people would use apostrophes appropriately: a) in general and b) especially if they are going to criticise me.
As the article was written for BME, the main thrust of it was body modification. Anything else was just for background purposes, including the general historical introduction and the part at the end about Donald Thomson. You may think it inadequate and I’d agree with you if I was writing an academic paper on the subject.
It is relevant because he is one of the most famous white Australians to work in that region with the same Yolgnu people I worked with; his work often in contradiction to much of the dominant Govt culture of the time.
I had also included a photo given by the Thomson family to Bentley that showed some scarification on Yolgnu females but Shannon didn’t include it.
To call the colonisation, attempted decimation, enslavement, disenfranchisement and the later misappropriation of children into white families, of Australian Aboriginal people not idealogical is a whitewash, if you’ll pardon the pun.
And while they are certainly not the only ones to do it, I think the history of white settlers versus Indigenous people all around the globe shows a worrying trend of dominance and brutality that was mirrored in Australia.
Not necessarily weak, but certainly Indigenous people in Australia didn’t come out of it well save for a few isolated examples here and there.
Hopefully we’re all working to make improvements to the situation.
Hi Ferg, thanks for the reply. To clarify - I was not criticising you, my comments were aimed at the article and at some of the responses.
I don’t think you understand the conditions of life in C18th and early C19th Australia if you believe the disputes between Indigenous peoples and Europeans were primarily ideological at this time. The newly arrived had very limited knowledge of how to live in the antipodes; European crops often failed, the fauna was completely different and unfamiliar. Indigenous populations who had their land taken became unable to support themselves without crops they depended on, areas for fishing etc. If, as your article and comment suggests, you believe there was some kind of directed ideological battle happening during the early settlement of Australia you have some thinking to do. When you can’t get food to eat and water to drink abstract sentiments lose much of their significance. Note that my criticism of the claim regarding ideologies was in reference to Australia in the early 19th century, quite some time before the stolen children, and I am not sure on what you mean specifically by the “enslavement” comment, but my guess is that you are talking about the mistreatment of labourers in FNQ which was also much later than the early C19th.
My primary qualm with this article was the typical reductive nature of many analyses of Australian history, especially in those written by people based outside Oceania. I feel that if you are going to include a potted history the standard of this part of the article should be in line with those set for writing histories. Your similar reductive treatment of colonial relations in your comment is also troubling.
I am definitely not trying to sweep the shocking mistreatment of Indigenous Australians under the mat, in fact I am in favour of the opposite. I think it’s important to have a public forum on these issues, but I also think accuracy and even-handed arguments are indispensable.
P.S. I hope I got all my grammar right here, though I can’t help notice that calling out on apostrophes when you yourself are missing out on capitalisation is a little hypocritical.
I missed capitalisation? Tell me where please.
I’ll get back to the other points soon, interesting as they are.
Ill get back to you bts when i read a few books on the history of australia.
As an abreviation P.S. needs to be capitalised, if we are going to be picky about grammar.
Our conversation has veered somewhat off course. As I’m not here to argue pedantic grammar points I will end this part of our conversation now:
From this web site (and the mistake is hers not mine):
http://www.udel.edu/eli/questions/g01.html
“Q. (from Keiley) when writing a letter what does ps stand for when add an extra bit?
A. The abbreviation ps stands for post script. It is an additional thought that the writer adds at the end of a personal letter.
Lowell”
A quick search will show that it’s OK to use capitalised ‘PS’ as well as lower case ‘ps’ and that it’s up to you if you want to use full stops or not - it seems that opinion is often divided on the matter.
However, your misuse of an apostrophe here:
“This article was not intended to be a political commentary on the sociological aspects of contemporary Indigenous life, its a shame some posters could not appreciate the information on traditional scarification.”
is agreed by grammarians the world over as blatantly wrong.
And while I’m on the subject, your use of a comma is misplaced. You would have done much better to use either a conjunction or a semi-colon. Your misuse has resulted in what’s called a ‘comma splice’, which is also wrong in this instant.
I’ll address your historical points later when I have the time.
Ferg.
Seems to me like you have a lot of spare time on your hands, too bad you choose to focus it on a minor and grammatically subjective error on an internet forum rather than your misinformed and rather shoddy work. Plus that link did not even justify your misuse of P.S., it merely mentioned that uppercase without the periods is a “trend”. I think it’s a little melodramatic to comment that “grammarians the world over” have come to any agreement at all over what may or may not have been a grammatical faux-pas in my sentence, and stop ignoring the fact that this is an informal correspondence and the real issue is the irresponsible nature of your published work. Furthermore, you are applying paradigmatic American guidelines for grammar to my sentence, a strange thing to do for someone who sounds so carefully anti-Imperialist.
Do me a favour and don’t begin a petty off topic argument, then continue it while claiming to not be “here to argue pedantic grammar points”. It’s fine if you prefer to sidetrack the argument, but don’t discuss the side topic while professing to dismiss it.
Oh, and “while I’m on the subject” get your line formatting right if you are so enthusiastic about grammar.
Someone’s thrown their toys out the pram…….
I wonder, do any of their rituals have a transcendant quality, or are they primarily about connection with the land and the survival of the tribe, albeit through body modification rituals which may on the surface appear transcendant because of the ‘pain’ factor involved.
From my experiences i would say, that the subincision- or cocksplitting- ritual of the nativs has two simple reasons:
1. with the opened cock the nativs had the onest kind of shure contraception resp.family planing. The men could stear easy their semenflow during sex: in the deserts sand or in vagina. Because the capacity of the clans was limited in their hard environment, only new life to create was allowed if one olders was died.
2. By the opened penis it was inevitably, that he was cleaned sometimes a day by flowing urin - i believe the onest bodypart and so the cleanest of a man living in the desert. This was very importand for the healthness of the wifes - im shure…
The most rituals of the mankind have total practical reasons and backgrounds!